late night wisdom: courtesy of a 15 year old

"PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power" (petarvn) 12/02/2013 at 01:21 • Filed to: None

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Does a car's performance really matter that much? I mean, sure, having a BRZ is better, and more fun than driving a camry, but if you autocross both of them, wouldn't you have an equal amount of fun? the camry is a lazier, less agile, larger, less powerful vehicle, but pushed to it's limit, i'd suspect it can be hooned, like anything else.

No, this isn't me justifying a camry purchase, since let's face it: for $24,000 you can get so much more (*cough* Jetta GLI *cough*). But driving it vigorously, even with that vague steering, and lazy throttle, is fun! It's probably just the perception of the vehicle, and what kind of vehicle you came from.

To add to this, I have experienced a camry near it's limits on a twisty road leading from Reno, NV to Lake Tahoe, CA. It wasn't that bad! heck, it was quite fun pushing it through the tight corners, stomping the brakes late, and letting the tires squeak a bit around the corners (no, I wasn't speeding, but a hairpin at 45, when suggested is 35 is a bit much for a rental camry)
Note: this conversation is not supposed to have a point, I just felt like writing something up :)

E30Joe drives a Subaru > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 01:26

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You are this person.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 01:32

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You're missing one essential premise:

Oversteer is always more fun than understeer. Perhaps not always quicker, but always more fun.

Squid > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 01:32

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Well sure, you could have "fun" auto-xing a camry, but just think of the ground man. . .

MtrRider Just Wants Doritos > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 01:36

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Autocrossing a Camry is more fun than sitting in a BRZ on the I-5 South through LA at 5:30 PM on Friday during road construction. But if both are being driven the same way (raced or canyon carving), the BRZ will be more fun.

Boxer_4 > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 01:52

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Most cars can be fun depending on how you drive them. The Truth About Cars took both a 7th generation Camry SE and Camry LE to two separate track days. Both were rental cars with the 2.5L 2AR-FE 4 cylinders, and both performed better than expected on the track. In fact, they both performed quite well (the SE more so than the LE). Both articles further prove my thinking that the driver matters more than the car when the only goal is fun.

offroadkarter > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 01:52

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You would have so much fun being grounded to the ground

Obligatory Camry commercial reference

Dirty Harry Callahan > E30Joe drives a Subaru 12/02/2013 at 01:58

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Indeed he has become Capt. Slow. The captain was wrong too. There are limits to how beige one can go and become measurably less fun. Try to dirt road rally said Camry and it may be different.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Boxer_4 12/02/2013 at 02:10

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yeah, I do agree with this point.
and hey! my family's rental was an SE! :D
maybe that's why it wasn't too bad...

All Motor Is Best Motor > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 02:15

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I think this is one of those areas where future experience will teach you how you were wrong. A car that changes direction more quickly, is quicker accelerating, is easy to drift/oversteer (controllably), that has better steering feel and response, better throttle response, lighter weight, etc. is just plain more fun to drive, unless you aren't a car person. I think what you're experiencing is a phenomenon Jalopnik knows as "Slow car fast is more fun than fast car slow".

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 12/02/2013 at 02:16

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I've yet to experience understeer in a severe manner, but I have a bad memory with oversteer. when I was 9, my dad's friend thought it would be a nice idea for me, them, and his daughter to go on a weekend skiing trip. Now going skiing's fun! Going in a bright beige/yellow BMW 1802 (bored out to 2002 spec, but no turbo on it) not so much. Getting off a mountain pass road, on to the side road leading to the ski center, the BMW spun, and went off the road, and in to a pretty deep ditch. It was on snow tires, and this was at 25-35 KPH. Needless to say, it was scary!
so yes, I prefer FWD understeer a bit :)

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > All Motor Is Best Motor 12/02/2013 at 02:17

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...I kind of like this phenomenon :D

M54B30 > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 02:17

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I look at this way: there's two types of "fun" - Lamborghini fun where it's ludicrously fast and handles so hard you poop yourself but well within the cars limits, and there's the fun you get when you're at the cars limits. Taking turns at 35 mph might be boring in a Lamborghini buuuut be oddly fun in an F150. Or maybe I'm weird.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > M54B30 12/02/2013 at 02:18

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nope, I agree "slow car fast" is more fun!

M54B30 > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 02:23

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Yes! Take my cars - a 530i and a 97 Mitsubishi Montero. Sure the 5 can whip around corners and brake hard, but it's more fun in the montero since it allows you to get a different action. Brake too hard in the 5? Cue the ABS' click-click-click. Brake too hard in the non-ABS Montero? Hooooold on it's gettin' freaky and sideways. Turn a corner hard, the 5 squats down and does it. The Montero lifts up like the Queen Elizabeth cruise ship doing emergency maneuvers and you think to yourself "did I get wheel lift? Cool!"

911e46z06 > All Motor Is Best Motor 12/02/2013 at 03:02

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Nailed it.

A spirited drive in an M3 (or BRZ or Corvette or whatever) with a skilled driver is pretty safe. The driver can develop a connection with the car and know how the car is going to respond to his actions because the car is engineered to behave in a predictable and consistent manner in high-performance conditions.

A spirited drive in your average beige car is very unsafe and not very fun. When vague steering, floaty suspension, undersized brakes, tires designed to minimize road noise rather than maximize grip, a squishy brake pedal, a lazy automatic transmission, overbearing electronic nannies, and other such components are asked to operate beyond the scope of their designs, the results are unpredictable. You can't get a feel for how the car is going to respond to your commands.

At least as far as I'm concerned, that takes us out of 'fun' and into 'scary'.

duurtlang > All Motor Is Best Motor 12/02/2013 at 03:36

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This really isn't the 'slow car fast' phenomenon. A V6 Camry is faster than a BRZ anyway. The slow car fast phenomenon is about driving a not very fast car at its limits. Preferably a well sorted car. The BRZ isn't very fast and its limits aren't very high in stock form, yet it does have the characteristics you describe (low weight, throttle response, and so on). So it's the perfect 'slow car fast' example. A Camry is a wallowy wale. When in the same situation it's always less fun than, for example, a 1980s hot hatch, despite the Camry being faster.

All Motor Is Best Motor > duurtlang 12/02/2013 at 04:16

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In the case of "slow car fast/fast car slow", slow doesn't necessarily have to mean strictly acceleration. In this case, while the Camry might actually be quicker in a straight line, as you say, it's a wallowy beast. It's slow in terms of handling, and its limits aren't especially high. The BRZ/FRS on the other hand isn't fast in a straight line but it's a good handling car (I'm sure its limits are higher than a Camry, aside from it being on Prius tires) so it's a fast handler. You also have to thrash the BRZ/FRS's engine a lot more to make it fast in a straight line, which ends up being more fun in some ways.

Aya, Almost Has A Cosmo With Toyota Engine Owned by a BMW. > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 07:55

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Camry actually have decent engine if it was the 3.5 V6, with 276 hp.

But it won't be able t put the whole 276 horses to the ground. But yeah, pusing the FF car to the limit is insanely fun.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Aya, Almost Has A Cosmo With Toyota Engine Owned by a BMW. 12/02/2013 at 09:49

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nope, this was a 4cylinder rental one

Cebu > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 12/02/2013 at 19:36

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I'm speaking as a kid only one year older than this guy:

Cars with more performance are more fun.

Drive a dismal box like a Camry or (gad!) on the interstate for your commute and it'll suck.

Drive a masterpiece like a Lancia Stratos on back roads and your commute will be totally awesome.

If you already have your license/permit, ask somebody who has a cool car that you know to let you take it for a spin, andd compare it to whatever mediocre box your mom drives. Then you'll see the difference.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Cebu 12/02/2013 at 19:57

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yeah, the closest thing I have to a DD is a Jetta 2.5 (manual, so some points back, there) but I have driven my stepdad's MK6 GTi, and a friend's MR2, that he recently bought!